I have in my hands a copy of Martha Nibley Beck’s book, Leaving the Saints: How I Lost the Mormons and Found My Faith. When I noticed it on the shelf last night at the Christian bookstore where I work, I immediately pulled it and told the owner of the store we probably shouldn’t be selling it. I’m not sure why I never warned him about this book. Somehow I just assumed it would never show up.
Nevertheless, here it is sitting in front of me. I told the owner I would look it over at home and let him know what I think about it. I’m 99% certain I’m going to tell him to send it straight back to the distributor.
I thought about actually reviewing it here, but I don’t think that’s necessary. It’s a bunch of hogwash from a new age “life coach” with repressed memories. It propagates every stereotype of Mormonism you’ve ever heard and even starts a few new ones. Even if all it’s vitriol were true, it’s certainly not Christian, so what place does it have in a Christian bookstore?
I’m honestly not sure what to make of your often excellent defense of Mormonism, Joey, but I’m grateful.
I’m wondering why, given that the author isn’t even Christian, they even considered it? My local Family Christian Bookstore is selling books by Joel Osteen and T.D. Jakes, so I guess anything goes… Surveying the material in most Christian bookstores today is a sad affair. God have mercy on us.
Aaron Shafovaloff said:
Our best customer, a senior citizen and former Mormon, requested the book. Prior to that, the owner didn’t even know the book existed. He assumed it was Christian and ordered three copies. He gave it a once-over before he put it on the shelf, but didn’t notice anything out of the ordinary.
Aaron Shafovaloff said:
The owner of store where I work is Reformed in his theology. We carry mostly R. C. Sproul, John Piper, James White, Jonathan Edwards, etc. We have medium-sized sections of our Bible wall devoted to the NKJV and ESV with the Reformation Study Bible displayed prominently.
We don’t stock our core inventory with anything by T. D. Jakes, Tim LaHaye, John Hagee, etc., though we do special order these books if people request them. We can’t scrutinize everything, so we do end up with some bad apples now and again, but we try to keep our store pretty clean.
Steve said:
By calling it a “defense,” you’ve probably made too much of it already. I’m doing the same thing anyone would do if they saw their position being championed by an idiot. People like Martha Beck give people like me a bad name.
Doubtless, many Mormons have heard about Beck’s book — possibly even read it — and are now lumping anyone who opposes the LDS church in with the likes of her. “All those anti-Mormons are the same. They aren’t really Christians. They’re just in it for the money and the publicity.” I’ve witnessed such talk myself on popular Mormon blogs and in prominent books like Take Heed That Ye Be Not Deceived by Richard I. Winwood (who reaches most of his conclusions by “ad hominem”:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem rather than by scripture or sound reasoning). I’m sure I said similar things when I was Mormon.
Because of people like Martha Beck, many Mormons will never seriously consider the possibility that the Mormon church is false. They will go on their merry way having never grappled with these important issues. That’s what I’m trying to avoid by arguing against Leaving the Saints.
For every Martha Beck, there are hundreds of honest Christians out there who love Mormons and are trying to help them see the truth. I hope and pray Mormons can tell the difference.
Thank you for your explanation, Joey.
Joey said:
In which category would you put the likes of “The Godmakers” movies?
Steve asked:
I hate to lump anyone together after the explanation I just gave, so I’m not sure I would put The Godmakers and Leaving the Saints in the same category. There are some big differences between them.
However, even though The Godmakers was written by professing Christians, I don’t think it’s any better than Leaving the Saints. In many respects it’s much worse. I disagree with Dave Hunt on a number of theological issues, and really can’t recommend any of his work, let alone his books and videos regarding Mormonism.
I’m no Dave Hunt fan either, but what specifically in Godmakers makes it on par with Leaving the Saints? From my experience it has received quite an unfair reputation, while its sequel seems to be the one worthy of criticism.
Aaron Shafovaloff asked:
Aaron, I haven’t been putting off your question. To be honest, I’ve never watched either of the videos in the Godmakers series. I saw a brief clip of The Godmakers on the internet once, but I’m not sure I remember much of it.
I may have made my previous judgement a bit hastily based on my faded memory and my opinion of other works by Dave Hunt. With apologies to my Mormon friends, I think I’m going to see about renting the two videos and watching them. I’ll post back here with my thoughts.
Well, for starters, they both make claims that aren’t just false, but boldly and extravagantly false. Here are a few examples from the print edition with page and line numbers. The movie makes similar claims.
“Mormons might unite all occult groups to form a world-wide, ecumenical, satanic occult group” (243:7 and 257:7). — Well yes, I suppose they might. But so might Evangelicals or so might Mariah Carey…
“Mormon world conquest is the basis for storing a year’s supply of food, guns, and ammunition” (229, last 8 and 241:19). — I must have missed the memo about storing ammo for world conquest…
“When that time comes [a worldwide LDS theocratic communism], woe to all who transgress the . . . Mormon gospel. Excommunication with loss of earthly property will be supplemented with the death penalty” (232:14). — Need I say anything?
I saw the Godmakers when I was seventeen. Gilbert Scharff’s book/rebuttal (though it’s not terribly in-depth at times) is available in entirety from http://www.fairlds.org/pubs/tagm/.
Joey said:
I suggest you don’t watch them, Joey. Why would you ever intentionally fill your mind with blatantly false propaganda? In this case, the propaganda is meant to scare people away from an organization that advocates faith in Christ and openly blesses people around the world.
If, however, you decide to ignore my advice and watch the movies, I encourage you not to rent them, which would fund Mr. Hunt with royalties. Instead, please check them out of your own Church library. I noticed them there.
Joey, I also advise not to watch the Godmakers. Little proof is provided, and there is much slandering.
Terry
Steve,
I have wanted to make a final comment to our dialogue for some time now but have not been able to get to the computer because of my new job. Unfortunately, I will not be able to dialogue any more, nor read any comments you may have after reading this. For that, I am sorry. Our dialogue has been very enlightening and reassuring. Thank you!
You stated Mormonism is not an impossible religion to keep. This was the main purpose behind my dialogue with you. Let me show you why the LDS “Plan of Salvation” is impossible for me to keep.
1. Obeying the commandments
Mormonism states that God’s law (the commandments) is “given to mankind for one specific purpose — to bring to pass their ultimate joy … God gives laws and commandments to his children to provide the only means whereby they may become like him” (Doctrine and Covenants Student Manual, pp. 393, 394). “If you keep my commandments and endure to the end you shall have eternal life” (D&C 14:7). “And after that you have received this, if you keep not my commandments you cannot be saved in the kingdom of my Father” (D&C 18:46). “Keep my commandments continually, and a crown of righteousness thou shalt receive. And except thou do this, where I am you cannot come” (D&C 25:15). “That by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins” (D&C 76:52).
It is obvious that keeping the commandments is an absolute must for eternal life in the LDS plan of salvation, and keeping them continuously. Nowhere is it stated above that you must only do your best and try to stay on a straight and narrow path to eternal life. It is stated “keep them,” “keep them continuously,” and “be washed and cleansed” by keeping them. What degree of obedience is necessary to meet the mark for eternal life? Can you show me the chapter and verse for this? No matter how high a person can jump, they still cannot reach the stars, and some can jump a lot higher than others. I cannot keep all the commandments of Mormonism, especially continuously. Thus, according to LDS scripture, I cannot be where the Lord is and I am not cleansed. I don’t see room for compromise.
So why did Jesus say to keep the commandments? “If you love Me, keep My commandments” (John 14:15); “He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me…” (John 14:21); “For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments.” Notice the difference between the LDS and Biblical statements of keeping the commandments. Imagine telling your kids that if they want to live with you, they must obey your commands, as opposed to telling them that if they love you, they will obey you. Big difference!
Let me share with you why the Law of God was given to us according to the Bible.
“Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor” (Galatians 3:21-25). “For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, ‘Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all the things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.’ But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for ‘the just shall live by faith.’ Yet the law is not of faith, but ‘the man who does them shall live by them” (Galatians 3:10-12). Just as LDS doctrine states, you must keep the commandments to have eternal life. Yet the Bible states no one is made right before God by keeping them, and by attempting to keep them “is not of faith.” See also Philippians 3:9.
“Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe” (Romans 3:19-22). The law was given to stop the sinner from justifying himself, and reveal what sin is, not to cleanse us, purify us, or keep us on the path to eternal life. Righteousness, or being made right before God, does not come through obedience of commandments according to the Bible.
You cannot combine works (deeds, obedience, etc.) with faith or the Atonement:
“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast” (Ephesians 2:8-9).
“And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work” (Romans 11:6).
Let me ask you this. Which standard for eternal life glorifies Christ more: blood atonement plus our works added to it, or Christ’s atonement alone?
“I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me. Therefore the law is holy and just and good” (Romans 7:9-12). Why is it good, just and holy if it brings death? It caused me to cling to the feet of Jesus and showed me how unrighteous I was. The law is like an x-ray machine, it reveals what is inside. Once the 10 Commandments are corrupted by our sin, it brings spiritual death to us. We are separated from God. Sin does this by deception, because it falsely promises satisfaction, claiming an adequate excuse (“no one is perfect”, “we all sin”), and falsely promises an escape from punishment (“God wouldn’t send me to outer darkness,” “all are saved,” “there’s no eternal punishment in hell”). This is why Jesus said “you shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free” (John 8:32). Free from the deceptions of sin. The law of God and exposure to our own exceeding sinfulness is something we have to respond to because it is a revelation of God to each person who is convicted of their sins (John 16:8). Once we realize this, God has a foundation to build upon. He cannot build upon pride, self determination, our own ambitions, our own exaltation, or works. Jesus came not for the righteous, but for the sinner (Matthew 9:13).
2. Through Christ I am already perfect
Christ has already made me perfect before God. Thus, the LDS plan of Salvation is an impossibility to me.
“For by one offering He hath perfected forever those who are being sanctified” (Hebrews 10:14). “For the law made nothing perfect; on the other hand, there is the bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God” (Hebrews 7:19). Obedience to commandments or staying on a straight and narrow path leading to eternal life does not make us perfect, only Jesus through our faith in Him. “Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?” (Galatians 3:3)
3. I cannot be credited with worthiness
I cannot be credited with personal worthiness or progression towards eternal life.
“Why do you call me good? No one is good but One, that is, God” (Mark 10:18). “There is none who is righteous, no, not one…there is none who do good, no, not one” (Romans 3:10, 12). Followers of Christ praise Jesus as the only worthy one. “Worthy is the Lamb who was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom, and strength and honor and glory and blessing!” (Revelation 5:12)
I could go on with the LDS theology of repentance and forgiveness as compared to what the Bible says, but I will simply refer you to the previous post in which I distinguished the two doctrines.
Conclusion
I want to close with Matthew 5:3: “Blessed are the poor in spirit, For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.” Think about this: a poor person has nothing to give, no inheritance. God’s process is that of emptying before filling as demonstrated throughout the Bible. The poor are beggars. A man who is truly poor in spirit will not be admired by the world (Luke 16:15 — “You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God”). Poverty of spirit is a consciousness of our own sinfulness and spiritual poverty (Jeremiah 17:9-10; Isaiah 6:5; Daniel 10:8). The way to happiness is poverty of spirit (Luke 18:10-14). Notice in Matthew 5 that poverty of spirit is put first because it puts the following characteristics into perspective. They cannot be fulfilled by one’s own strength to endure to the end, but only by a beggar’s reliance on God’s power to grant eternal life, which is given as a free gift.
“Each of us must stand before our Redeemer alone and account for what we have done” (Ensign, May 1989, p. 10).
“The individual tells the story himself, and bears witness against himself…That record that is written by the man himself in the tablets of his own mind-that record that cannot lie-will one day be unfolded before God and angels, and those who sit as judges” (Gospel Principles, Ch. 46, The Last Judgment, p. 296).
“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life” (John 5:24).
In bearing testimony of Jesus Christ, President Hinckley spoke of those outside the Church who say Latter-day Saints ‘do not believe in the traditional Christ.’ “No, I don’t. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak” (LDS Church News, week ending June 20, 1998, p. 7).
“It is true that many Christian churches worship a different Jesus Christ that is worshipped by the Mormons or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints” (LDS Seventy Bernard P. Brockbank, Ensign, May 1977, p. 26).
Steve, choose this day whom you will serve.
Psalm 51
Thank you for your response, Terry.
Terry said:
I have recently become very fascinated with dialogues between Evangelicals and Mormons on the subject of “salvation” and the part “grace” plays in it. I am amazed that so many Evangelicals think the LDS have somehow cut out the role of God’s grace in our salvation. They don’t realize that by making such an assumption, they are cutting out 100% of what we actually believe brings us salvation (I am using the Evangelical definition of the word salvation).
Every one of the scriptures Terry used to defend his position is used in LDS sacrament meeting talks, LDS Sunday school lessons, and LDS seminary classes. We LDS believe these scriptures with all our hearts, and we do know from whence our salvation comes. We also fully understand that we have absolutely no chance for salvation through living the commandments, but rather we depend on Jesus Christ 100% for His gracious gift of salvation.
I have come to believe that the confusion all has to do with the perception of the meaning of the word “salvation”, especially as it is compared with the meaning of the word “sanctification”. We LDS simply use these words differently than Evangelicals. When an LDS person is talking to an Evangelical about salvation, they really need to be very careful to use the terms the way an Evangelical would, or considerable confusion will result.
After (and only after) we get on the same page can a sensible dialogue be had.
Here are the requirements for salvation, according to LDS doctrine:
(Pearl of Great Price | Articles of Faith 1:3–4)
3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
No before you say “see, there is that word ‘laws,'” please note that it says laws and ordinances of the Gospel, not laws and ordinances of the Law of Moses (or any other system of laws). What is the law of the Gospel? I submit to you that it is clearly spelled out in the NT:
(New Testament | 2 John 1:9)
9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
(New Testament | Galatians 6:1-2)
1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
2 Bear ye one another’s burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.
(New Testament | Matthew 22:36-40)
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
(New Testament | Matthew 25:31-46)
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
I believe that Evangelicals and Mormons both believe that we should love God and love our fellow man. I also believe that Evangelicals and Mormons believe that we should do these things for the right reasons.
Evangelicals, because of the influence of John Calvin’s theology of the “Totally Depravity of Man� are usually quick to note that Christians do these things because the spirit of God indwells them and guides them to do these things, and therefore see no credit in it for themselves. The LDS, who are not influenced by Calvin’s theology, are usually quick to note that Christians should do these things by choice, and that one who loves God and his fellow man will naturally choose to do these things. However, I have spoken to Evangelicals who believe that we should make moral choices, and I have spoken to Mormons who say they do good things because the Holy Ghost guides them to do so. It is rare to find either camp saying that we should love God and our fellow man so we can get to heaven, for that is not love at all, but just a greedy impulse.
So, why do the LDS go on and on about the “Word of Wisdom” and “Tithing” and things like that? Do we believe that adhering to these things will bring us salvation? If you ask Mormons, some might say “yes,” but what is at the root of such a response? I submit to you that it is because Mormons often use the term “salvation” where an Evangelical would use the term “sanctification.”
Here is the meaning of sanctification to the Southern Baptists:
Here is the meaning of “salvation” and “sanctification” to Mormons:
Salvation: “Salvation is the greatest gift of God (D&C 6:13). The root of the word means to be saved, or placed beyond the power of one’s enemies (TPJS, pp. 297, 301, 305). It is redemption from the bondage of sin and death, through the Atonement of Jesus Christ” (Encyclopedia of Mormonism).
Sanctification: “Sanctification is the process of becoming a saint, holy and spiritually clean and pure, by purging all sin from the soul. Latter-day Saint scriptures mention several factors that make sanctification possible” (Encyclopedia of Mormonism).
Do we always use these terms this way? Unfortunately not, and our Evangelical brethren assume we are working our own way to heaven because of the confusion it engenders.
All the talk we LDS do concerning living the commandments, exaltation, and the Celestial Kingdom, etc., etc., rightly belongs in a discussion of sanctification. Our talk about faith, repentance, baptism, being born again, going to heaven, and the resurrection of mankind rightly belong in a discussion of salvation. In either case, we LDS do know that both our salvation and the rewards for our good works come through the grace of Jesus Christ. This is fundamental to the LDS faith, and I am terribly sorry that so many Evangelicals (even ex-Mormon Christians) have either been taught, or have somehow come to the conclusion that we believe otherwise.
I’m not sure if we will ever get our Evangelical friends to understand us when we use the terms differently than they do.
What you have said is very true, Keith. Understanding one another is important. Using the same terminology is important. Being on the same page is important. Recognizing our similarities is important.
Perhaps someday Mormons will stop saying that Evangelicals want to be saved in their sins, without repenting. Perhaps someday Evangelicals will stop saying that Mormons want to work (or earn) their way to heaven. Neither group should ascribe beliefs to the other.
In many ways, we are closer to each other than we think. However, even if the day comes when we use the same terminology and clearly recognize all our similarities, we will still have to admit that we are very different in one incredibly important area:
Steve said:
I agree. I tend to think that until we find the common ground, any discussion of what the restoration brings to the equation will be lost in the arguments over what some Evangelicals believe was “lost” in the restoration. In my discussions with some Evangelicals, they really do believe that we have lost our way concerning the NT concept of salvation by grace, and that we have somehow reverted to an OT concept of trying to earn our way to heaven by living the law of Moses. I think some detailed discussion of why this misunderstanding exists will bring us to a more fertile discussion of what the restoration “restored,” namely the concept that one must have “charity” in order to accept the saving grace of Jesus Christ. As I said before, I believe this requirement for salvation is clearly outlined in the NT, and of course, for those who accept the Book of Mormon as God’s word, this concept irrefutable.
I believe that a belief crept into Christianity, as part of the great apostasy, that un-saved people are completely incapable of any good whatsoever, and therefore incapable of charity. My research on this matter has led me to believe that the greatest influence on this view came from John Calvin and Martin Luther (around 1500 a.d.). The earliest this concept may have been brought up is Augustine (354 to 430 a.d.) when he expounded, in his De Prædestinatione Sanctorum, how even these first desires for salvation are due to the grace of God, which therefore absolutely controls our predestination. In other words, the apostasy brought about a denial of the free agency of man, for an un-saved man was considered incapable of making any moral decisions on his own, and the saved man makes moral decisions only because of the indwelling of the spirit.
While I have described the doctrine in the extreme, in my experience, Evangelicals do hold to such a doctrine, at least to some level.
I can’t find a way to believe in such a doctrine at any level, because the spirit has spoken to me of man’s free agency, personal accountability, and of God’s and man’s innate goodness. In other words, I have full confidence and faith that man has the ability to choose good or bad. A denial of this freedom reduces man to being a captive of a monstrous immoral God, who arbitrarily saves some and damns the rest to hell. In other words, I am repulsed by the notion that: neither God, nor His crowning creation (man), have the ability to love one another. Therefore, I reject this notion totally.
Total love requires total freedom. Thus we find ourselves in this realm we call “life,” which seems magnificent and wicked at the same time, for such total freedom, of necessity, must allow for evil as well as good choices.
To me, the restoration of the concept of God’s gracious gift of freedom to mankind is the most remarkable part of the restoration. This gift is integral to the atonement, and is the very thing that necessitated the need for a savior in the first place (in other words, the atonement is the gift of freedom). The Father declared the gift eons ago, but Christ’s suffering made it a reality. For by it we are freely allowed to learn from our sins (and the sins of others), and yet not be lost, if we turn back to God (repent).
It is the only way I can see that we can learn pure charity. Adherence to this process can eventually bring us to perfection. As we conform to the process (suffer with Him), perfection is bestowed upon us — not because we earned — but because by our repentance and endurance we have learned to abide in God’s love and grace. As we keep ourselves in the covenant relationship with Christ we are deemed perfect because of His righteousness and our covenant relationship with Him. As we continue in this process of sanctification, we can eventually become like Him. I see no other way.
(New Testament | Romans 8:16-17)
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
This good news will ring from the housetops until the whole world is invited to know that God loves all and that all have the personal freedom to love him back (even if only in their hearts because of oppressive worldly rulers).