In my daily Bible reading a few days ago I came across Colossians 4:11. In this rather inconsequential verse, Paul mentions a couple of his friends and says, “these are the only Jews among my fellow workers.” For the first time I realized (though I’m not sure how it eluded me for so long) that Paul never stopped calling himself or other Jewish converts “Jews”. Being a Jew was his heritage and his upbringing.
As I tried to relate this idea to my own life, the only thought I could offer was the age-old addage, “you can take the boy out of Mormonism, but you can’t take the Mormonism out of the boy.” My wife likes to make fun of me that I still pray like a Mormon — not with thee’s and thou’s, but certain of the phrases and words I use. Sometimes I catch myself saying “Lord, I’m grateful that you made it possible for us to return to live with you someday.” The word “return” tends to pop itself in there even though I now believe that we were never in any sort of pre-existence with God.
I think I’ve learned in the last few days not to view my upbringing with contempt, but to appreciate it. To be truthful, I’ve never stopped appreciating it, but for the first time I’ve realized it’s okay for me to do that. I’ve rejected the truth-claims of Mormonism, but the LDS culture will always be a part of who I am.
The question I take away from all of this, though, is this: Since Paul still called himself a Jew, should I start calling myself a Mormon again? How would Mormons react to that? How would Christians react to it?
The last thing I would want to convey is the sense that I’m still trying to hang onto part of Mormonism. I’ve found something so superior to Mormonism that I really don’t desire to return to it. On the other hand I don’t think it would be healthy for anyone to simply cast off their roots. My ancestry will always define who I am, as is true for everyone.
I feel a certain kinship with Paul. I don’t pretend to be nearly as faithful or as wise as he was, but I find so many parallels in his experience and mine. I’ll be posting more about this in the next few days.
Interesting point, Joey. I’m curious to hear your additional thoughts. If you like, here are a couple of mine.
First, from dictionary.com:
Interestingly, the word “Jew” represents not only a religion, but also a nationality. When Paul converted to Christianity, he left his religion, but not his nationality. Therefore, he could be a Jew and a Christian.
Additionally a Jew is one who adheres to Jewish culture. Therefore, you might call yourself a Mormon if you continue to adhere to Mormon culture. Since you and Janene have both spent most of your lives in Utah, you probably adhere to a great amount of Mormon culture.
But is culture what makes a Mormon?
People of several religions call themselves “Mormons,” although they are not members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I suppose they adhere to some of the teachings of the Book of Mormon.
But is belief in the Book of Mormon what makes you a Mormon?
In my opinion, “a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints” would be a stronger definition of Mormon. Either way, are you “a member of the Mormon Church”?
The Church teaches that you are a member after baptism and confirmation. You retain that membership in the kingdom indefinitely–unless you are excommunicated or have your name removed from Church records. Even then, I am not sure your membership is removed completely, since a person who is baptized after being excommunicated retains his original baptismal date.
So, I’m not sure what makes someone a “Mormon.” I don’t think it would be wrong for you to call yourself one; it should not offend other Mormons, since the name could have any of the meanings mentioned above.
See, Mormons don’t even call themselves “Mormons,” except to differentiate themselves from others, which is sometimes good and sometimes bad. When making their baptismal covenants, they do not take upon themselves the name of Mormon.
When Mormons covenant with Christ “to do his will and to be obedient to his commandments,” they are “called the children of Christ, his sons, and his daughters…[they] take upon [them] the name of Christ.” And His name “never should be blotted out, execpt it be through transgression” (see Mosiah 5:5–12).
Mormons believe like other Christians, that we should retain Christ’s name in our hearts. Additionally, we should always remember the covenants we have made with Him and He has made with us.
Steve,
What does “retain Christ’s name in our hearts” mean?
Oops, I unintentionally expressed what “other Christians” think, and it is coming back to get me. Without extensive study, I should not claim to know what members of other faiths believe.
I don’t think you meant to catch me declaring other people’s beliefs, Terry, but you did. I appreciate it. Please correct me whenever I act like I know what other people believe.
I can speak for the branch of Christianity commonly called Mormonism (to the extent that any lay member can speak for his religion), but I cannot speak for other faiths.
Now, to clarify:
I meant to say, “Mormons believe that we should take upon ourselves the name of Christ (as opposed to the name of the prophet Mormon).”
Instead, I wrote that we should retain Christ’s name in our hearts. To me, the two concepts are similar. The idea is that we should always remember Christ, our Savior. As Christians, we should love him, serve him, and keep his commandments.
Did I answer your question?
Yes. Thanks, Steve. D&C 25:15 says: “Keep my commandments continually, and a crown of righteousness thou shalt recieve. And except thou do this, where I am you cannot come.” D&C 58:30 says: “Who am I that made man, saith the Lord, that will not hold him guiltless that obeys not my commandments.” Go to http://www.needgod.com to see if you have continually kept the commandments.
God bless you Steve,
Terry
Of course, no one is perfect; we have all sinned and broken the commandments. Thank God for the sacrifice of His Son. Those who have faith in Him and repent of their sins can be saved, despite their sins.
No one is perfect? Aren’t we commanded to be?
Mormon scripture reports that perfection in one’s mortal life is a possible achievement:
“Noah (Gen. 6:9), Seth (D&C 107:43), and Job (Job 1:1) are all listed as perfect men. The same would be true of a host of prophets, apostles, and saints in the various dispensations. Alma says “there were many, exceeding great many” who had walked in the path of perfect righteousness before the Lord. (Alma 13:10–12.)” Past Elder Bruce R. McConkie of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles Mormon Doctrine, Perfection p. 567.
“And, in fine, wo unto all those who die in their sins; for they shall return to God, and behold his face, and remain in their sins.” 2 Nephi 9:38 Book of Mormon.
According to this verse, a man had better die perfected. And it apparently is possible in this life as noted above.
“Our goal as children of God has been clearly stated. Jesus said: “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.” Achieving A Celestial Marriage, p. 292.
Note the present tense of Jesus’ command (“Be”, not become). If your boss told you to be on time to work, he doesn’t mean two weeks from now.
“Yet would the Lord give us a commandment that was impossible for us to keep? And when he gives a commandment, doesn’t he, as Nephi said, prepare a way for us to accomplish what he commands?” Life and Teachings of Jesus & His Apostles, p. 57.
Terry
Thank you. I suppose I should have said “no one is perfect without Christ.” Everyone sins and falls short of perfection on his own. God prepares a way for us to accomplish his commandments, as you mentioned. Christ is the only way for man to become perfect. Through Christ, we can avoid dying in our sins.
So back to the original question. On judgment day, when the Lord asks you if you kept the commandments continuously, what will you say? Let your yes be yes and no be no, everything else is from the evil one (Matthew 5:37).
Terry
Of course, my answer would be “no.”
I’m sorry. I’m not sure what you are driving at. Please fill me in.
Well, Steve, by your own admission you will stand guilty before God of not obeying His commandments? Does this worry you? It does me. Do you believe you would go to live with our Heavenly Father or outer darkness?
Terry
I’m still not sure where you are going, but I will play along.
Yes, I will stand guilty before God by not obeying his commandments. Everyone but Christ is guilty of sin.
I would be worried about suffering in hell eternally (outer darkness), except I know that God has prepared a way so that I will not suffer, if I repent (see D&C 19:16–17).
Since I have faith in Jesus Christ, and since I strive continually to repent, I personally do not fear a guilty judgment. I have hope for a glrious resurrection and eternal life with God. I know Christ will represent me and ratify my acts and words.
Your soul is too valuable to me to play games with you. All I ask is that you listen to your conscience and be honest with me and especially yourself. I want this to be my last comment regarding this subject. It is lengthy, but a very important subject. If you have questions, of course I will answer them. You have already confessed you’re not “continuously keeping the commandments”, as D&C says we must. You also stated you are not perfect, as we are commanded to be now, just as we are commanded to be holy now (I Peter 1:16). We are either holy or unholy, perfect or imperfect. We are either obeying the law of God or disobeying it, no middle ground provided for us. Note the following quotes:
“Although God’s laws are exact and immovable, they are revealed and given to mankind for one specific purpose — to bring to pass their ultimate joy … God gives laws and commandments to his children to provide the only means whereby they may become like him.” (Doctrine & Covenants Student Manual, pp 393, 394)
Joseph Smith’s translation of Matthew 5:48: “ye are therefore commanded to be perfect.”
Apostle Russell M. Nelson underscores this command: “Those words were given additional intensity in the Joseph Smith Translation.” (Ensign, November 1995, p 88).
“Therefore I would that ye should be perfect, even as I, or your Father who is in heaven is perfect.” (3 Nephi 12:48)
From The Miracle of Forgiveness by Spencer W. Kimball, p. 286: “Yes, I said, but we are commanded to be supermen. Said the Lord, ‘Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.’ (Matt. 5:48) We are gods in embryo, and the Lord demands perfection of us.”
From The Book of Mormon, 1 Nephi 3:7: “I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them.”
From Walk in His Ways B, pp. 34,35: “Ask a child to read and explain 1 Nephi 3:7. Stress the concept that with God’s help we can obey every commandment we receive.”
We can ask ourselves now the same thing Heavenly Father may ask us on judgment day: “Am I perfect, holy, keeping ALL the commandments, even continuously, as Mormon doctrine states I must?”
We know God is perfect, holy, and just. He will be a just judge and serve justice on judgment day. Imagine in a civil courtroom a man guilty of multiple crimes standing before the judge. The judge asks if he has anything to say before he pronounces judgment. The guilty man says “I have tried hard to obey the law, but I do admit breaking it at times. Most of my life I did good things. I believe you will let me go.” A just judge would say, “You are right, I am a good judge, and because of my goodness I will uphold the law and find you guilty of breaking the law.”
Will God dismiss our willful disobedience of Him because we have done “good deeds” during our lifetime? I say willful because nobody is holding a gun to our heads making us think evil thoughts, not loving our neighbor as much as ourselves, or occupying our minds most of the day with thoughts other than loving God (“…love the Lord thy God with all your mind…”). We choose to obey or not to obey.
Think of a young man who takes a swing at his brother. His brother might swing back, but that will probably be the extent of the consequences. Now think of that very same young man taking that very same swing at a police officer. Same swing, but the consequences are a whole lot more serious. Take it one step further. Imagine that young man taking that very same swing at the President of the United States. Same swing, but even more consequences. The seriousness of the action often is determined by whom the action affects. When we do not follow the precepts (commands) of God, we sin against our Maker.
We sin in our thoughts and in our words, as well as in our deeds. Not only do we sin by breaking God’s commands (sin of commission), we also sin when we don’t do the positive things God commands us to do (sin of omission; James 4:17). We can and do sin unintentionally (Numbers 15:29). Jesus said we will have to give account for every careless word that we speak on judgment day (Matthew 12:36). Imagine if I could place a computer chip behind your ear. For one week it records on video every word you speak, every thing you see, and every thing you think. Then imagine showing this at Sacrament Meeting on a large screen in front of everyone. Would you be embarrassed? God will judge the secret things of our hearts. And this is what Heavenly Father spoke through His prophet Jeremiah about our hearts: “The heart is desperately deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked; Who can know it?” (Jeremiah 17:9). One of the wisest men on ever to live on earth wrote this: “Truly the hearts of the sons of men are full of evil” (Ecclesiastes 9:3). Sheep look white, clean, and pure in green pastures. Until it snows. Against the pure white background they look dirty and filthy. That is how we look compared to God’s holiness, sinlessness and righteousness.
Look at a simple commandment to keep: keep the Sabbath holy. Look at the following teaching: “The Sabbath of the Lord is becoming the play day of the People. It is a day of golf and football on television, of buying and selling in our stores and markets. Are we moving to mainstream America as some observers believe? In this I fear we are. What a telling thing it is to see the parking lots of the markets filled on Sunday in communities that are predominately LDS.” (Gordon B. Hinckley, Ensign, Nov. 1997, p. 69)
How much TV do we watch on Sunday? Travel? Play?
You mention repentance and trusting the Lord. Look at the following teachings:
“There is one crucial test of repentance. This is abandonment of the sin … The saving power does not extend to him who merely wants to change his life … Nor is repentance complete when one merely tries to abandon sin … To try is weak.” (Spencer W. Kimball quoted in Sharing the Gospel Manual, p. 94)
“This repentance must make such a mighty change in our hearts that we have no more disposition to do evil, but to do good continually.” (Sharing the Gospel Manual, p. 95)
“Repentance must involve an all-out, total surrender to the program of the Lord. That transgressor is not fully repentant who neglects his tithing, misses his meetings, breaks the Sabbath, fails in his family prayers, does not sustain the authorities of the Church, breaks the Word of Wisdom, does not love the Lord nor his fellowman. God cannot forgive unless the transgressor shows a true repentance which spreads to all areas of life.” (Kimball, quoted in Doctrines of the Gospel, p. 41)
Have you abandoned sin? Do good continually? (You stated you do not continually keep the commandments) Are you forgiven? How do you know? What about the sins you may not even be aware of? How can you ever be assured you have truly repented? How do you know you won’t lose your forgiveness later? What about sins you know you have not yet abandoned? How does it feel to know you are not forgiven for those sins? You mentioned obedience to commandments and your acts and words. The prophet of God, Jeremiah, said all our deeds are like filthy rags (Isaiah 64:6). Was this spoken just for the disobedient Israelites? Paul made the same remarks in the New Testament: no one is righteous, understands, or does good (Romans 3:10-12; remember the sheep analogy). Look at it this way. When we clean the dust of the dining room table, it looks clean, but open the curtains and let the morning’s sunshine in. What do you see on the table? Dust. What do you see in the air? Dust. You can keep doing good things, look clean to others, but the pure light of God pierces our souls. Romans 3:20 says no one will be justified by the deeds of the law, it only reveals sin. Galatians 3:10 says the person is cursed if they don’t obey all the commandments of the law. If you break just one commandment, you break the whole law of God (James 2:10). Its like one pin prick to a balloon.
Compare this to the Mormon teaching: “Although God’s laws are exact and immovable, they are revealed and given to mankind for one specific purpose — to bring to pass their ultimate joy … God gives laws and commandments to his children to provide the only means whereby they may become like him.” (Doctrine & Covenants Student Manual, pp 393, 394)
According to your own admission, you are not obeying all the laws and commands given by God which according to Mormon doctrine provides the only means to be with our Heavenly Father. Listen to your conscience, Steve.
Go back to the courtroom scene. You are standing before the judge. He is a good and just judge (we need more of these in the US), and because of his goodness he upholds the law and the penalty for breaking it. All the evidence has been presented, and there is no doubt about your guilt. Your apologies and good works can’t erase your crimes. He pronounces the penalty as a $250,000 fine, but you don’t have 2 pennies to rub together. You are going away for a long, long time. But someone in the courtroom stands up and says “I’ll pay his fine.” The law has been satisfied, your debt has been paid, and you are free to go, and the stranger’s sacrifice was a demonstration of his love for you. That is what Jesus did 2,000 years ago (Romans 5:8; Galatians 3:13).
Do you see God’s great love for you? Do you see your need for eternal forgiveness, to have all your sins completely blotted out and your debt erased? Do what the Bible says and “Repent … that your sins may be wiped out and times of refreshing may come from the Lord” (Acts 3:19).
Here is Mormon doctrine on forgiveness:
“Those who receive forgiveness and then repeat the sin are held accountable for their former sins.” (Gospel Principles, p. 253)
“It depends upon you whether or not you are forgiven, and when. It could be weeks, it could be years, it could be centuries before that happy day when you have the positive assurance that the Lord has forgiven you. That depends on your humility, your sincerity, your work, your attitudes.” (The Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 324f.)
“How do you define forgiveness? (Overcoming the desire to punish someone who has offended you. Not being angry with him and granting him complete pardon.)” (Latter-day Saint Woman B, p. 63)
Mormons are expected to grant the offender complete pardon without retaliation and without requiring recompense. However, Mormonism defines the forgiveness of God very differently.
“It depends upon you whether or not you are forgiven, and when. It could be weeks, it could be years, it could be centuries before that happy day when you have the positive assurance that the Lord has forgiven you. That depends on your humility, your sincerity, your work, your attitudes.” (The Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 324f.)
“Peace comes only through forgiveness. But forgiveness has a high price. President Kimball tells us: ‘To every forgiveness there is a condition … The fasting, the prayers, the humility must be equal to or greater than the sin. There must be a broken heart and a contrite spirit … There must be conviction of the sin, abandonment of the evil, confession of the error to properly constituted authorities of the Lord.'” (Miracle of Forgiveness, quoted in Gospel Principles. p. 252)
Here is the biblical doctrine of forgiveness:
Psalm 103:8-12 : God does not treat us as our sins deserve. Instead, due to his immense love for those who believe in him, he forgives us of all of our sins, separating us from them. We no longer have a payment to make. This forgiveness has already happened, is absolute, final, and forever; not conditional or tentative.
Micah 7:18-19: God is the active force in forgiveness, not us. God “pardoneth”, “passeth by”, and “subdues” our sin. He does this solely because of his mercy and his compassion. He separates us from our sin by casting it into the depths of the sea.
Matthew 9:2: This man’s sins, all of his sins, were forgiven by Jesus. The man did nothing, confessed nothing, did no works. Jesus’ act of freely forgiving this man was not earned. He forgave this man as he has already forgiven us.
Colossians 3:13: God commands us to forgive each other the same way God forgives us.
Hebrews 10:17-18 : Once God forgives a sin, there is no more payment. He forgets the sin. He does not, as Mormon doctrine claims, remember a past sin when it is repeated.
Psalm 19:12: The Psalmist asks that his hidden sins (ones he doesn’t even know he has committed) be forgiven.
Mark 3:28: Under Mormon doctrine only sins for which a person truly repents, confesses to church authorities, performs works matching the seriousness of the sin, etc. will be forgiven. According to Jesus, all sins of all men (except the rejection of faith) will be forgiven. The disparity here is countless numbers of sins.
Jesus cried out to His listeners to believe in Him, and they will have eternal life. This is not just head knowledge, for demons believe in God and tremble, but don’t have eternal life (James 2:19). The English word “believe” comes from the original Greek word “pisteuo” meaning in a moral sense : “used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul; to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith; mere acknowledgment of some fact or event: intellectual faith; to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity.” Can you say you trust in Jesus alone for eternal life as He simply promises? Or are you trying to earn His forgiveness?
Jesus promises eternal life to those who will trust in Him alone. What does it mean to “put your faith in Jesus Christ?” It means to personally trust in Jesus the same way you’d trust in a parachute if you had to jump 25,000 feet out of an airplane. You wouldn’t just “believe” in the parachute; you would put it on! In the same way, the Bible says to “Put on the Lord Jesus Christ…” (Romans 13:14) and you will be saved. There are millions of people who “believe” in Jesus, but they have not put on the Savior. Jesus said many will be destroyed because they are following the wrong path (Matthew 7:13-14). Look at this warning by Him to “religious” people: “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you, depart from me, ye that work iniquity” (Matthew 7:21-23).
Eternal life is described in the Bible as a present condition. Read these passages and note the tense: John 5:24; Romans 6:23; John 6:36; I John 5:11-13.
Steve, turn to Christ. Put your soul in His hands, and not in a church, leaders, doctrine, or yours. If you don’t know what to say, make Psalm 51 your prayer of repentance. Turn from sin, self, and “religion” and surrender to Christ. Read the books of John and Romans to confirm what I have said. Read and meditate upon the passages I have given you, and listen to your conscience. God bless you Steve!
I see what you are saying, Terry. For a long time, I thought I could ‘earn’ my entrance into heaven by trying to be good, and that my good deeds would outweigh my bad ones. Then, I was made aware of God’s perfect standard and realized that I could never meet it. In this light of understanding, it became clear to me why Jesus came to earth and suffered on the cross as a sacrifice for me: to pay the price for my sins and to do what I cannot do. Now, my faith is in Christ to make me holy, not in what I do or don’t do. Yes, I strive to do what is right, and yes, I continue to fail in different ways each day but I do not fear hell because I trust Christ to save me! I will enter heaven not because of what I have or haven’t done but because of what He has done! The commandments cannot save us because it is impossible to obey them perfectly: they only leave us condemned, sinful, and worthy of eternal darkness. Galatians 3:23 says that “the law of God is a schoolmaster to lead us to Christ.” That’s what happened to me. Through the commandments I saw my sin and my own inability to ever be perfect, so I placed my faith in Christ (in His perfect life, atonement for sin, and ressurrection). Christ changed my heart and made me a new person: something my struggles to obey the commandment never did. Trust Christ only. Mark
Wow. Thank you, Terry, for putting so much time and thought into that post. I am grateful for your love and obvious concern for my eternal welfare.
I am not sure how to respond. We could spend a lifetime debating what Mormon doctrine teaches and ten times that long debating what the bible says. I won’t do that here.
Instead, I hope to show that I already trust in Christ as my Savior and no one else. Additionally, I keep his commandments because I want to serve him and become like him, not because I think keeping his commandments will save me.
I stand condemned
As you point out, God’s perfect standard condemns each one of us, for we all willfully rebel against God and break his laws.
Alma also teaches what you have said:
I am completely aware that I am not perfect. I would be found guilty on judgment day without the atonement of Christ.
I must trust in Christ
As I understand, you are inviting me to “put my faith in Jesus Christ,” “turn to Christ,” and “trust in Him alone.”
I have! I do! I am! I sincerely thank you for your invitation.
If I ever gave the impression that I trust in something or someone other than Jesus Christ to save me, I am sorry. I cannot save myself. The Church cannot save me. The temple ordinances cannot save me. Jesus Christ alone can save me (see Mosiah 3:17).
Jesus has saved me!
Jesus has redeemed me from the fall, from death, from hell, and from eternal suffering.
The fall of Adam placed me in a world separated from my God. The atonement of Jesus will bring me back into the presence of God after death (see 3 Nephi 27:14–15).
The fall of Adam assured that I will die. The resurrection of the Messiah guarantees that I will rise from the dead with an immortal body to live forever! (See 1 Cor. 15:20-22, Alma 11:42–45.)
When I sin, I give myself to satan. The Savior has saved me from my sins, however. Because of him, I will not dwell eternally in hell with Lucifer. I will live in “heaven” with God (see D&C 76:38–44, read the entire chapter).
Justice demands an impossible price for my sins. Since my Redeemer has paid that price, I will not suffer endlessly (see D&C 76:81–90, read the entire chapter).
In at least these four ways, I am saved! I did absolutely nothing for this salvation! In this respect, God’s salvation is unconditional. The “grace of God” guarantees the same salvation for everyone. Even murderers receive the salvation described above. If any Christian religion proclaims a more liberal definition of “the grace of God,” I would like to know.
I know Jesus Christ is my Savior. I will never pay him back for what he has done. I trust him. I love him. I make him my God, my King, and my Master. As his servant, I offer him my obedience, my desires, my life, my time, my talents, and everything he blesses me with. I know he alone has saved me.
God wants more than our salvation; he wants us to become like him
In addition to saving me and everyone else, Jesus opened the way for God’s children to actually become like God. In an earlier post, I described how that is possible.
Even though Christ has saved me, cleansed me from sin, and brought me back into his presence, I am still me. I still desire evil. Thus, I am not yet like God.
If we wish to receive everything God has, we must take advantage of what he has already given us, namely his Church, his revelation, his gospel, his Priesthood, his covenants, his commandments, and his ordinances. God gave us these things so that we could live as he lives and become like him. These things do not save us, they help change us and propel us towards eternal progression.
Can you see how I am trusting Christ for my salvation, and yet giving all my energy to becoming like God at the same time? My works will not save me. Christ has saved me and thus freed me to act and to choose whom I will serve. If I choose to serve God, I will become like him. If I choose to serve satan, I will become like him.
I choose to serve my Savior, despite — and because of — my guaranteed salvation. If I continue to repent and keep his commandments, I shall be like him one day. That is my desire. I hope it is yours, too.
I believe we are speaking past each other. Please clarify a few things. You said:
“If I ever gave the impression that I trust in something or someone other than Jesus Christ to save me, I am sorry. I cannot save myself.” Please explain what you mean by “save.”
You also stated:
“Jesus has redeemed me from the fall, from death, from hell, and from eternal suffering.” Has He given you eternal life as a free gift, now?
You stated:
“The ‘grace of God’ guarantees the same salvation for everyone.” Again, define salvation, please.
You said:
“I trust him.” What do you trust Him for?
You discuss becoming like God. If I understand correctly, this is what is called “eternal life” according to Mormon doctrine. Correct?
Thank you for seeking clarification. I am certain we have different definitions of salvation, eternal life, etc. We should recognize those differences. Please show me how your definitions differ from mine.
My definitions
Terry said:
Unfortunately, I don’t think I can define “salvation” better than I already have. Please read the section of my last post called “Jesus has saved me!” In that section, I identify four ways in which Jesus has “saved” me (and everyone else). That section is my definition of “salvation.â€?
If I were to summarize that section, I would say “salvation” is “life without end in heaven with God.” This salvation is a free gift.
Terry said:
Yes, using Mormon semantics, “eternal life” is roughly equivalent to becoming like God. Under that definition, God has not given me “eternal life” as a gift. Instead, he has given me the opportunity and ability to obtain “eternal life.” Without Christ, I wouldn’t have that opportunity or ability.
However, please allow me to interpret your question without Mormon semantics. Some people simply define “eternal life” as “immortality,” or “life without end.” Others define “eternal life” as “salvation,” or “life without end in heaven with God.” According to either of those definitions, God has given me (and everyone else) “eternal life” as a free gift!
Terry said:
As I mentioned in my post, “I am trusting Christ for my salvation.” I trust that I am saved, and I trust that I have eternal life as some people define it.
I also trust in Christ’s promise that if I have faith and repent, he will help me keep my covenants and endure to the end. I trust that Christ will help me become like God, if I give myself completely to him. These are conditional statements, but they still represent trust in Christ, not in me. If I didn’t trust Christ to keep his promises, I wouldn’t give myself to him. Additionally, I recognize that if I didn’t trust Christ, I would have no hope for eternal life.
Your definitions
To what degree did I answer your questions? Do you have any more?
How would you define salvation? What is your definition of eternal life?
Steve,
Sorry for the long delay in responding, I got a new computer and it took me (and still is) a while to set it up.
You asked:
According to the Bible, it is living with Heavenly Father for eternity in His Kingdom. That is my definition of eternal life.
You made a comment about “Mormon semantics.” What you call “Mormon Semantics”, I would call the teachings of the Prophets and other General Authorities of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. No one knows more about Mormon doctrine than these people.
This is what they say, and have said, concerning how we obtain eternal life (or the possibility of it):
“The more we know God, the more we love him and keep his commandments (see I John 2:3). By keeping his commandments we can become like him.” — Gospel Principles, Ch. 1, p. 10
“You must begin at the bottom and ascend step by step.” — Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 348
“Each command we obey sends us another rung up the ladder to perfected manhood and toward godhood; and every law disobeyed is a sliding toward where man merges into the brute world.” — Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, p. 153
President Hinckley closed the General Conference yesterday by saying “be faithful to the commandments.”
Yet, by your own admission, you are not.
You stated:
Square this with Mormon teaching:
“There is one crucial test of repentance. This is abandonment of the sin … The saving power does not extend to him who merely wants to change his life … Nor is repentance complete when one merely tries to abandon sin … To try is weak.â€? — Spencer W. Kimball quoted in Sharing the Gospel Manual, p. 94
To try is weak, Steve.
“Repentance must involve an all-out, total surrender to the program of the Lord. That transgressor is not fully repentant who neglects his tithing, misses his meetings, breaks the Sabbath, fails in his family prayers, does not sustain the authorities of the Church, breaks the Word of Wisdom, does not love the Lord nor his fellowman. God cannot forgive unless the transgressor shows a true repentance which spreads to all areas of life.” — Kimball, quoted in Doctrines of the Gospel, p. 41
You have already stated you are a transgressor (I didn’t asked for specifics, nor do I need them), so by Mormon doctrine you are not “fully repentant?”
“Each of us must stand before our Redeemer alone and account for what we have done.” — Ensign, May 1989, p. 10
“[The individual] tells the story himself, and bears witness against himself … That record that is written by the man himself in the tablets of his own mind — that record that cannot lie — will in that day be unfolded before God and angels, and those who sit as judges” — Gospel Principles, Ch. 46, The Last Judgment, p. 296
There is a time limit, Steve. According to Mormon doctrine you can’t look to the future and say “Some day.” According to Mormon doctrine and your own admission you are not fully repentant.
“A principle in this statement that is often overlooked is that they must fully repent and ‘suffer for their sins’ and ‘pay their debt to justice.’ I recognize that now is the time to ‘prepare to meet God.’ If the repentance of the wayward children does not happen in this life, is it still possible for the cords of the sealing to be strong enough for them yet to work out their repentance? Mercy will not rob justice, and the sealing power of faithful parents will only claim wayward children upon the condition of their repentance and Christ’s Atonement. Repentant wayward children will enjoy salvation and all the blessings that go with it, but exaltation is much more. It must be earned!” — Ensign 2003, p. 62
“ye are commanded to BE perfect” — JST of Matthew 5:48
“Therefore I would that ye BE perfect, even as I, or your Father who is in heaven is perfect” — 3 Nephi 12:48
“And after that you have recieved this, if you keep not my commandments you cannot be saved in the kingdom of my Father.” — D&C 18:46
“That by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins…” — D&C 76:52
By your own admissions, you have broken the commandments, and are not keeping them (if you were obeying all of them, you wouldn’t need to “strive to repent”), and thus, are not perfect as we are commanded to BE.
According to the consequences of disobedience to the Gospel Law, you cannot be saved in the kingdom of God, and are not washed and cleansed from all your sins.
“Who am I that made man, saith the Lord, that will not hold him guiltless that obeys not my commandments?” — D&C 138:4
By your own admission, you have not obeyed the commandments.
You said:
I’ll stick to Mormon doctrine, and leave out private interpretation, how about you?
If you remain on the path you are going, by Mormon doctrine you are headed for destruction, and the Bible agrees.
Terry said:
I’m sorry, but I fail to see whatever it is you want me to see. Please help me to understand.
You have told me over and over that I am sinful, and that, alone, I fall short of eternal life (by any definition). Amen! I agree. But you have left out the role of Christ. I don’t have to attain eternal life alone!
At the risk of sounding contentious, I must defend Mormon doctrine here. Terry, you have completely misrepresented the teachings of the Church.
From what I can tell, you would have me (and everyone else) believe that Mormon doctrine teaches it is impossible to obtain eternal life. You want me to think that Mormons must be perfect by themselves, and that they give no place to the saving atonement of Jesus Christ.
You quoted about fifteen references, only one of which mentioned the role of Christ. Without a discussion of Christ’s role, your quotations are not representative of Mormon doctrine.
You know that Mormons believe in Christ as the Son of God. You know that they worship him as their Savior and Redeemer. You know that the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants testify that Christ lives, and they invite all men to have faith in Him. They clearly teach that without Christ, men are damned. Their focus is to invite all men to come unto Christ — and coming unto Christ as they instruct is possible.
Christ stands between me and justice. His bowels are filled with mercy (see Mosiah 15:9). Although I cannot save myself, Christ can save me. His is the only name given whereby salvation can come (see Mosiah 3:17).
Despite your suggestion to the contrary, eternal life under Mormon doctrine is attainable, through the atonement of Jesus Christ.
I am grateful for this thread, and for your thoughts. Please do not misrepresent the doctrine of the Church by suggesting that Mormons ignore the atonement of Christ. Anyone who spends five minutes in the Book of Mormon honestly evaluating its purpose will see that this is not true.
Yes, I am commanded to be perfect. But I don’t have to do it alone. I do it through and with the atonement of Christ. His atonement makes it possible, despite my sins and failures.
I came across these posts a couple weeks ago and I have been reading Steve and Terry’s comments with interest. A couple of comments of my own, if you like. (Bear in mind that I am writing from a biblical perspective.)
Ephesians 2:10 tells us that the good works that men do are those which the Spirit of God does through men, and therefore, they are not to man’s glory but to God’s. Of course, aside from the indwelling of the Holy Spirit through spiritual regeneration (being “born again” — John 3:3), it is impossible to do any good thing: for all of man’s attempts at righteousness are like “filthy rags” compared to God’s righteousness (Isaiah 64:6). There is nothing that man can do on his own that his good: perhaps, this is why Jesus (when a rich, young ruler in Matthew 19:17 addresses Him as “good Master”) responds, “Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments,” (Matthew 19:17). Recall that the rich, young ruler was assured of his righteousness, believing he had kept the commandments sufficiently to please God (Matthew 19:20). Notice Christ’s response: he lists the 10 commandments. The rich, young ruler will still not admit his sin (the breaking of the commandments), so Christ tells him to sell everything and follow him in order to reveal the true condition of the ruler’s heart, and the ruler goes away grieved, knowing he loves his wealth too much to obey this command. As Christ demonstrates in this account, the commandments have no power to save us because we cannot keep them: they only leave us condemned before a righteous, perfect God. (Have you ever told a lie? Disobeyed your parents? Not kept the Sabbath? Ever lusted? Envied?) None of our strivings to be good, holy, or pure (to obey the commandments) can make us right before God: for if our own attempts to meet and satisfy God’s law could redeem us, there would have been no reason for Christ’s sacrifice.
When we compare our sin to one another, we don’t necessarily seem that bad; we’re pretty good people! However, when we compare our sin to God, we fall woefully short of His perfection and holiness. What then can we do to save ourselves? Nothing. Can a dead man raise himself up out of a coffin? We are dead in sins and trespasses (Ephesians 2:1), powerless to keep Satan from taking us to hell. Fortunately, God has given us His laws: in them we can see the condition and reflection of our sinful hearts. This is why Galatians 3:23 says “the law of God is a schoolmaster to lead us to Christ.” James 2:10 says, “if you break or transgress one point of the law, you break it all.” It is impossible to keep the law: otherwise, (as I said earlier), there would have been no need for Christ. Once I admit that my obedience cannot save me, I can place my faith in Christ — NOT in Christ PLUS my obedience to the commandments — but in Christ alone.
Why did Christ come to earth? He knew we couldn’t keep God’s laws perfectly so He became the law in the flesh and fulfilled the law for us. Ever since He died for our sins on the cross, THERE IS ONLY ONE WAY TO KEEP THE LAW NOW: place all our faith in Christ and Christ alone to save us — not in our good works or anything we can or have done — but only in Christ. We must trust Him to save us from hell just like we would trust a parachute to save us if we jumped from an airplane. He is our only hope. Because our flesh is inherently evil, we will never be without sin; but Jesus can cleanse our hearts and keep us perfect before God when our faith is in Him and His atoning work on the cross. Once we are born again, we are perfect in God’s sight because the blood of Jesus covers our sin. That is the only way we can ever be considered ‘good’ by God. That is why Jesus came. That is why He is “the way, the truth, and the life.” The commandments condemn us because we can never obey them perfectly; Jesus gives us life. However, to be saved, we must admit our sin and inability to keep the commandments. We must be sorrowful for our sin. In this humble state, God will receive us.
Mark.
Steve, I am very concerned for you, and my posts are not designed to bemean you or Mormonism. Perhaps another question would focus this dialogue more. On what basis do you believe you can become perfect? (I think we both agreee Heavenly Father does not allow imperfections into His Kingdom.) Gospel Principles, p. 78 states this: “But because of him (Jesus), if we will keep his terms, which are to repent and keep his commandments, we may retrun to live with our Heavenly Father.”
Steve, I can’t keep his commandments, especially “continually” as the Doctrine and Covenants state I must. So how can I have live with my Heavenly Father according to these statements? Could you please answer for me these two simple questions? Thanks!
Terry
Terry, thank you for your concern for me. Thank you for refocusing the dialogue. When I started this response, I did not intend it to be long. However, pondering your questions has truly helped me to better understand how I can become perfect through Christ. I am grateful for this opportunity to explain what I have learned. Please stop now and pray. Consider my words prayerfully. See if they do not answer your questions.
How Can We Become Perfect?
Your first question is a good one. I agree that we must be perfect and clean to live with God, and especially to be like him, which is our goal. How can we become perfect?
I think you briefly answered the first question yourself in leading up to the second one. Your quote from Gospel Principles answers it. To become perfect, we must repent and keep the commandments. Before answering your second question, please allow me to explain why we must repent and keep the commandments, despite the atonement of Christ.
If there had been no Christ, we would have been banished from God’s presence forever. Death and hell would have had power over us forever. We would have had to suffer for our sins forever. Not one of us would have overcome these obstacles, ever! We are not responsible for all of these problems, yet we inherited them as children of Adam, and we do not have the power to overcome any of them. We could repent all we want, and we would still face these eternal problems!
However, our brother and Savior, Jesus Christ, did not inherit these problems. He had power over them. Unlike us, Jesus was a not child of Adam. Although he had a mortal mother, he had an immortal, perfect Father. Like Adam, Jesus had power to live forever in God’s presence, without death, without hell, and without eternal suffering. Unlike Adam, Jesus did not transgress and fall victim to the problems we all face.
Instead, Jesus Christ suffered in the Garden of Gethsemane and on the cross. Jesus Christ, the only being with power over death, gave his life willingly. On the third day, he took back his life. In ways I do not fully comprehend, Jesus overcame our separation from God through his suffering, death, and resurrection. He conquered death and hell for each of us. He ended eternal suffering for our sins. He reversed all the problems that kept us from becoming like God, and he became our King, our Lord, our Master, and our Redeemer. As I have said before, He saved us!
Without Jesus, any attempt at repentance and perfection would be worthless. We would still be separated from God, still be dead, and still be suffering in hell for eternity because of Adam’s transgression and because of our own sins. Repentance would get us nowhere.
Jesus Christ did for us what we could not do for ourselves. That work is done; it is finished. We do not need to do anything to save ourselves from death, hell, suffering, or permanent separation from God.
Now that Christ has accomplished this measure of salvation for everyone, it is our duty to repent and keep his commandments. Why?
Jesus saved us by doing what we cannot do for ourselves, but he never excused us from doing what we can do. Throughout the scriptures, even after the atonement was completed and salvation from death and hell assured, God’s servants continued to command us to repent and keep the commandments. Christ himself demanded it while he lived! These demands are serious, they are requirements; they are not jokes. The prophets and apostles who plead with us to keep the commandments are telling us how to accomplish our eternal purpose; how to become like God; how to become perfect. After being saved from death and hell, we must show our faith in Christ by doing as he says. We must repent and keep his commandments in order to become perfect.
How Do We Repent and Keep His Commandments?
Your second question naturally follows from the answer to the first. If it is our duty to repent and keep his commandments, how do we do it? I will admit, it can seem impossible. Here again, you already answered your question — when you quoted several sources of Mormon doctrine four posts above. To summarize and paraphrase their content, “we must confess our sins to God and stop sinning.â€? It is that “simple.â€?
You have declared such repentance to be impossible. I say it is not, and the Church would certainly agree with me.
I admit I have not fully repented of all my sins, but I have faith that my Friend and Savior will also accomplish this task for me, if I allow him to. He has promised that, “My grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them” (Ether 12:27).
You have interpreted Mormon doctrine to mean we must be perfect now, at once. Certainly, there is a necessary urgency; we should not delay repentance. However, despite your arguments to the contrary, I believe God has given us an entire lifetime, precisely so that we may become perfect over that time of “probation.” We are to use our time to humble ourselves before God, have faith in him, and allow him to make weak things become strong. For most of us, it will not happen all at once, but it is still possible.
With Jesus’ help, we can become perfect little by little. For example, I am already perfect in a few areas of my life. I have never polluted my body with addictive drugs. Without comparing myself to anyone, I can say, “I am perfect in this area. I am like God in this area.”
Let us look at another area of my life. When I was little, I stole an Native American arrow from a school classroom and took it home with me. Later, I felt horrible, I told my parents, my teachers, and my God what I had done. I did what I could to make it right. I have never stolen since. I have confessed and forsaken that sin. In that area of my life, I am now perfect. Of course, I would not be perfect, if it weren’t for Christ’s atonement. I would still have that stain from the past. But, Christ paid the price, he bought my sin, and he cleaned my slate. Though my sin was as scarlet, it is now as white as snow because of my Redeemer.
I could go on and on. The point is, with Christ, perfection can come one area at a time, as we repent and cleanse an area of our lives.
Perhaps you will say we cannot “repent and cleanse an area of our lives� because we cannot stop sinning, even with God’s help. You will be wrong. The difficulty of this task can be overcome with God. This is precisely what Jesus meant when he said, “With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible� (Matthew 19:26).
Additionally, Paul wrote:
Conclusion
In conclusion, you asked how it is possible to become perfect. The answer is to repent and keep the commandments continually. You asked how such a task is possible. I testify it is possible through humility and faith, through the strength of God and through his atonement. With God, it is possible to rid ourselves of sin gradually, until we no longer desire to be sinful. At that point, not only will we never sin again, but we will be completely cleansed from all past sins because of Christ’s suffering. Christ will have bought our sins and left us without any. We will be perfect through Christ, the Lord. This perfection, which leads to eternal life like God, will come only through Christ; we will never accomplish perfection without Him, for all the reasons mentioned above.
Once again, I hope I have answered your questions, for I have spent much time pondering and praying about them, not to mention writing an answer to them.
Mark, I did not mean to ignore your post. I thank you for your comments and thoughts. I’m not sure how to respond to them. I would probably respond in the same way as I have responded to Terry, since many of your comments seem to be the same as his.
I believe I finally understand what you have been saying in your posts, Steve: for this, I am thankful. You are saying that Christ paid the price for mankind’s sin on the cross, ending our separation from God, a sort of ‘universal’ salvation coupled with a requirement for man’s obedience. Having done this, He will eventually strengthen ‘all who allow Him’ to the point that they can perfectly obey the commandments and become like Christ. Interesting. (Truly, I never understood what you were saying that clearly until now.)
A few thoughts in return:
In your own words, “With Jesus’ help, we can become perfect little by little.” However, you also say, “I admit I have not fully repented of all my sins …”
What happens if you die tommorrow, Steve? You admit that you are not yet perfect, fulfilling the requirements of God and the church to obey the commandments. But how can a sinful person enter into heaven where there is no sin?
Teenagers die every day. Some of them are Mormon. Have you ever known a teenager who obeyed the commandments perfectly?
What about the elders in the church: do they all profess to be without sin?
Even secular, non-religious people who do not even believe in God rarely claim to be perfect. (The exception I suppose is those who argue that there is no such thing as ‘right and wrong’ and that morality is relative.)
Perfection in human form seems a high standard for entrance into heaven and not a notion that anyone could reasonably entertain. As Jesus Himself said, “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone,” (John 8:7). As I recall, there were no takers (smile).
I, on the other hand, believe that I can never be ‘perfect’ in this life (obey the commandments perfectly), which is why salvation is only possible through faith in Christ’s atonement ALONE. To add anything to the atoning work of Christ (the necessity of our perfect obedience, for example) is to say that His sacrifice was not sufficient. Consider the following:
“For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
–Hebrews 10:14-18
Christian obedience, Steve, is NOT an offering for sin: there is no more offering for sin after placing our faith in Christ alone to save us; He is our offering for sin, once and for all time and the means by which we are “sanctified,” (Hebrews 10:14). Christ did not come to strengthen us to obey the law perfectly; rather He IS the perfect strength of those who can NEVER perfectly obey the law.
That is the difference.
Lastly, you write, “I admit I have not fully repented of all my sins, but I have faith that my Friend and Savior will also accomplish this task for me, IF I ALLOW HIM TO” (emphasis mine).
Man has no part in his own salvation, Steve. Salvation is an act of God, not man, which is why it is to God’s glory and not our own.
It is certainly true that Christ’s atonement is available to all: “For God so loved the world he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life,” (John 3:16). However, while salvation is available to all, it is NOT automatic: “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven,” (Matthew 7:21). It is not enough to believe in Christ, Steve: for James 2:19 tells us that even the demons believe that Christ is the Son of God. We must follow Christ’s command: “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect,” (Matthew 5:48).
How can an imperfect man “be ye therefore perfect?” By trusting in Christ’s atoning work as the only offering necessary for sin. Will we trust Christ alone to save us? This is the only obedience required for salvation.
Mark
Thank you for your thoughts, Mark. I am glad my last post clarified a few things. I encourage anyone who did not entirely and prayerfully read it to do so. The Spirit taught me as I wrote it.
Allow me to answer one of your questions.
You know, Mark, I have thought a lot about this over the last couple of weeks. Some of Terry’s posts have helped me to see that God really does require perfection. My own posts have led me to understand that perfection is possible only if we humble ourselves and have faith in Christ. I think this is partially what you mean by “trusting in Christ.”
When we trust in Christ completely (by humbling ourselves and having faith in him), he can make weak things become strong. With him, all things are possible; we really can overcome sins and temptations, because he will provide a way for us to escape them.
So, we can become perfect through Christ and his atonement. Our natures will change so that we no longer desire sin. The blood of Christ will cleanse our past, so that we no longer have a history of sin. We will become new, perfect, spotless, innocent children of Christ.
But what if I die now, before that has happened to me?
My first thought is that I had better not die without being on the right path. I ought to take this moment — and every moment — to humble myself and have faith in Christ. Thus, I will be on the “straight and narrowâ€? path. If I continue down that path, Christ will eventually make me perfect.
My second thought is that the judgment and assignment to a particular Kingdom of God do not occur at death; they occur after the millennial reign of Christ. If I am on the right path when I die, I will be allowed the opportunity to live with Christ on earth when satan and his servants are bound. I will yet be allowed to tread that path unto perfection.
However, if I die without humbling myself before Christ and having faith in him, my cause is desperate indeed. I must not procrastinate my repentance!
The answer to your question is that I had better repent now. I had better confess and forsake my sins now. I had better humble myself and have faith in Christ now. I will not be perfect now, but I will be on Christ’s path to perfection. If I am on that path when I die, I will not be bumped off.